Open Forum

All Communities
 View Only
Expand all | Collapse all

Seller's social security number

  • 1.  Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-06-2022 14:27
    Looking for advise on how to best handle an elderly seller that refuses to provide her social security number? She recently sold her primary residence and was able to avoid providing number. We are handling an investment property sale. Obviously we are required to give her a 1099s. She has told me, she consulted with 3 attorneys who advised her she does not need to give us her ssn. I imagine that was on her primary residence. She is adamant on this point. 


    Just a little more summer please



    Gail Malloy
    Westmoreland Paralegal Services
    Keystone Commons
    35 W. Pittsburgh St. Suite 300
    Greensburg, PA  15601
    724.832.8683
    724.410.1015





    ALTA Marketplace


  • 2.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 00:54
    I believe you are only required to solicit the social security number.  If the seller refuses, you simply report the 1099 anyway with the information that the seller refused.

    That's how we handle it.

    You do not have to stop the transaction.

    Best,

    J. Mark Lee

    ALTA ID: 0007617

    109 East Gay Street

    Lebanon, TN 37087

    Telephone: (615) 444-3900

    Fax: (615) 443-4503

    www.leeandlee.com

    mlee@leeandlee.com




    ALTA Marketplace


  • 3.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 01:21
    Also being in PA, we try to press the issue that we have to have the SSN in order to be able to run domestic relations searches, and it also helps to be able to run PACER when needed.  Sometimes we also need at the very least a portion of it to obtain a mortgage or other payoff.  If you do electronic reporting of the 1099's at the end of the year, I'm not sure how else you would do that without the SSN.  If we knew we had to report the transaction, we just also stressed that we needed it for reporting on top of the other instances I mentioned.

    I know you've been doing this a long time, so I'm assuming most of that does not apply.  Some elderly sellers would argue they didn't have any domestic relations, but I would tell them it was a requirement in PA for us to search it.  We haven't had anyone continue to not provide it after explaining those things, but we normally also had a real estate agent or attorney representing that person that reiterated that we had to have it to avoid additional pushback.  Worst case I'm assuming my partner would tell them that we are not releasing any sale proceeds without it unless we received other direction from our underwriter.

    ------------------------------
    Jayme Zick
    Partner
    The Settlement Company
    Allentown PA
    +1 (484) 892-6200
    ------------------------------

    ALTA Marketplace


  • 4.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 08:53
    HI Jayme  Not releasing any proceeds was going to be my ultimatum to her. My underwriter is in agreement. Trying to have compassion for elderly seller. I thought of offering to release proceeds to one of her 3 attorneys who advised her not to provide ss as long as the attorney provides ss or ein. Then attorney can release to her without her ss. Probably will offer this 1st and see how it goes. I wanted to see if others have had this dilemma and it was resolved. 


    Just a little more summer please



    Gail Malloy
    Westmoreland Paralegal Services
    Keystone Commons
    35 W. Pittsburgh St. Suite 300
    Greensburg, PA  15601
    724.832.8683
    724.410.1015








    ALTA Marketplace


  • 5.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-27-2022 12:09
    I also had a seller not wanting to give her soc sec. #, so I said so I can't release your check with out it. So just let me know when you want to give me your soc. sec. #. I have other closing;s to get to. She had a change of heart pretty quick. ​​

    ------------------------------
    Colleen Twomey
    Office/Escrow Manager
    Mountain View Land Title Co.
    Potosi MO
    +1 (573) 431-1359
    ------------------------------

    ALTA Marketplace


  • 6.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-28-2022 01:23
    Don't real estate proceeds fall under self reporting? I don't think you're technically required to issue a 1099



    ALTA Marketplace


  • 7.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-28-2022 10:41
    Thanks for all your responses. We sent the seller an Affidavit of Refusal to Provide her Social Security No. and a W-9 form with Refusal to Provide over the SSN blocks. We asked her to have this signed, notarized and returned before closing. Somehow she had a change of mind and has provided us with her SSN! 

    Thank you for all your insights 

    Gail Malloy
    Westmoreland Paralegal Services
    35 W. Pittsburgh St. Suite 300
    Greensburg, PA  15601
    t  724.832.8683
    c 724.420.1015





    ALTA Marketplace


  • 8.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-30-2022 07:40

    From the IRS Instructions For Form 1099-S:

     

    "1. If you are the person responsible for closing the transaction, you must file Form 1099-S..." and then goes on for several paragraphs assigning responsibility to others overseeing the transaction if there is no named settlement agent.   

     

    Cyndy

     

    Cynthia N. Zook

    Legal Assistant
    Blakinger Thomas, PC
    28 Penn Sq., 3rd Fl., Lancaster, PA 17603

    Email: cnz@blakingerthomas.com

     

     




    ALTA Marketplace


  • 9.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 10-03-2022 14:31
    It is the settlement agents responsibility to file the 1099-s. I recall one time having a seller who refused to provide their SSN for reporting. You must still file the 1099-s, you just file it without a TIN, just indicate the “seller refused to provide Taxpayer Identification Number “ with the filing. Make sure to maintain the copy of the documented written notice you sent to the seller of their obligation to provide that and the 1099-s will be reported to the IRS without their TIN if they refuse to provide it.

    Sent from my iPhone


    ALTA Marketplace


  • 10.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 05:34
    Refuse to close.

    ------------------------------
    Martin East
    Martin D. East, Attorney at Law
    Nicholasville KY
    +1 (859) 885-3278
    ------------------------------

    ALTA Marketplace


  • 11.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 07:41
    When this happens we consult a tax attorney for advice on the amount to withhold at closing and send to the IRS noting the seller refused to comply with your W-9 request.  Each time we tell the seller we are going to have to do that and the cost for the tax attorney and the amount of withholding, they have always complied with the SSN request.  I am not a tax attorney and you should consult one now before you close to determine your responsibility in this matter.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Miller
    Attorney
    Preferred Title Company
    Baton Rouge LA
    +1 (225) 766-6464
    ------------------------------

    ALTA Marketplace


  • 12.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 08:55
    Hi Patrick
    I hadn't thought of this option so thank you. If it comes to it, I may have to go this route. 

    Just a little more summer please



    Gail Malloy
    Westmoreland Paralegal Services
    Keystone Commons
    35 W. Pittsburgh St. Suite 300
    Greensburg, PA  15601
    724.832.8683
    724.410.1015








    ALTA Marketplace


  • 13.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 08:52

    Perhaps explain a social security number is needed to confirm she is not a foreign person to avoid 15% withholding under FIRPTA.

     

    Law Offices of William G. Morris, P.A.

    247 North Collier Boulevard, Suite 202

    Marco Island, Florida 34145

    Phone No. (239) 642-6020

    Fax No. (239) 642-0722

    http://www.wgmorrislaw.com/

     

    Due to COVID-19, to help minimize exposure and to keep our employees, their families, our clients and our community safe, effective March 30, 2020, our physical office will be open by appointment only. Our firm will still be available to meet your needs and will conduct meetings by phone or video conference at our discretion.

    To schedule an in-person, phone or video conference appointment, please call 239-642-6020 or email your attorney and/or paralegal.

    Please be well and stay safe. Thank you.

     

    Please call us to verify our wire instructions prior to sending a wire.  A common form of wire fraud involves the receipt of fraudulent wire instructions via email from an email address which may appear familiar to you. Scammers will often impersonate business or Realtor email addresses to send fraudulent wire instructions. You should always verify routing and account numbers prior to sending a wire with a quick phone call to our office.

     

     

    PRIVILEGE AND CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:This e-mail is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521 and is legally privileged.  The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the party or parties addressed and named in this message.  This communication and all attachments, if any, are intended to be and to remain confidential, and it may be subject to the applicable attorney-client and or work product privileges.  If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and its attachments.  Do not deliver, distribute, or copy this message and or any attachments if you are not the intended recipient.  Do not disclose the contents or take any action in reliance upon the information contained in this communication or any attachments. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the Law Offices of William G. Morris for damage arising in any way from its use.

     




    ALTA Marketplace


  • 14.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 09:11

    Perhaps suggest without a social you are unable to confirm she is non foreign and will be subject to FIRPTA withholding.

     

    Law Offices of William G. Morris, P.A.

    247 North Collier Boulevard, Suite 202

    Marco Island, Florida 34145

    Phone No. (239) 642-6020

    Fax No. (239) 642-0722

    http://www.wgmorrislaw.com/

     

    Due to COVID-19, to help minimize exposure and to keep our employees, their families, our clients and our community safe, effective March 30, 2020, our physical office will be open by appointment only. Our firm will still be available to meet your needs and will conduct meetings by phone or video conference at our discretion.

    To schedule an in-person, phone or video conference appointment, please call 239-642-6020 or email your attorney and/or paralegal.

    Please be well and stay safe. Thank you.

     

    Please call us to verify our wire instructions prior to sending a wire.  A common form of wire fraud involves the receipt of fraudulent wire instructions via email from an email address which may appear familiar to you. Scammers will often impersonate business or Realtor email addresses to send fraudulent wire instructions. You should always verify routing and account numbers prior to sending a wire with a quick phone call to our office.

     

     

    PRIVILEGE AND CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:This e-mail is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521 and is legally privileged.  The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the party or parties addressed and named in this message.  This communication and all attachments, if any, are intended to be and to remain confidential, and it may be subject to the applicable attorney-client and or work product privileges.  If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and its attachments.  Do not deliver, distribute, or copy this message and or any attachments if you are not the intended recipient.  Do not disclose the contents or take any action in reliance upon the information contained in this communication or any attachments. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the Law Offices of William G. Morris for damage arising in any way from its use.

     




    ALTA Marketplace


  • 15.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 10:10
    Edited by Kevin Gillespie 09-07-2022 10:15
    You also propose that she check with her attorneys on whether she should obtain and provide a tax identification number instead. If so, she may be more comfortable providing that.  See: https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/small-business/articles/ein-vs-ssn/



    ALTA Marketplace


  • 16.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 10:32

    You tell her that is required under US law by 26 U.S.C 1445(b)(2) and provide her the link below to the government website stating the law.

     

    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2020-title26/pdf/USCODE-2020-title26-subtitleA-chap3-subchapA-sec1445.pdf

     

     

     

     

        

    Lora Leathco
    Business Real Estate Transactions Paralegal
    PO Box 1473 | Columbia, SC 29202
    1901 Main Street, Suite 1700 | Columbia, SC 29201
    803-227-4322 | Fax 803-400-1452
    lleathco@turnerpadget.com
    vCard | Location

     




    ALTA Marketplace


  • 17.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 10:35
    You tell her that it is required by US law 26 U.S.C. 1445(b)(2) and provide her with the government link to the law.

    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2020-title26/pdf/USCODE-2020-title26-subtitleA-chap3-subchapA-sec1445.pdf

    ------------------------------
    Lora Leathco
    Paralegal
    Capital City Title Agency, Inc.
    Columbia SC
    +1 (803) 277-4322
    ------------------------------

    ALTA Marketplace


  • 18.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-07-2022 10:53
    The IRS provides you with a way to avoid the penalty for failure to provide a SSN on a 1099-S if you follow their instructions for notifying the Seller of the potential imposition of fines and penalties. I have included the link for your reference.





    Kim
     
    Kimberly A. Gilbert-Toelle, Esq.*
    Raber Law Offices, PLLC
    484 Williamsport Pike, PMB #300
    Martinsburg, WV 25404
    Office: 681-260-6455

    Cell: 301-910-4625
     
    *Admitted in West Virginia, Maryland, and the District of Columbia only
     
    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:  This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential, legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Although this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Kimberly Gilbert-Toelle, Attorney at Law., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.  



    ALTA Marketplace


  • 19.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-08-2022 10:35
    I have always explained that the IRS requires us to report the sale and, that to do that, we need the SSN.   I have actually called other attorneys and had that conversation with them when they were advising the seller not to provide.  That usually got the attorney (who knows nothing about real estate transactions) to acquiesce and advise the client correctly.

    ------------------------------
    Nancy L. Gusman, Esq., CLTP, NTP
    GusmanLegal, LLC
    Brick House Consulting Services, LLC
    Beltsville, MD
    (301)563-9669
    ------------------------------

    ALTA Marketplace


  • 20.  RE: Seller's social security number

    Posted 09-08-2022 12:00
    Thanks for this idea. It may just work.

    Just a little more summer please



    Gail Malloy
    Westmoreland Paralegal Services
    Keystone Commons
    35 W. Pittsburgh St. Suite 300
    Greensburg, PA  15601
    724.832.8683
    724.410.1015








    ALTA Marketplace